About Stayman

Hello everyone, I have been teaching now at our club for the past 4 years and I find that not teaching Stayman in the Beginners lessons quite difficult.   Stayman is as old as Bridge if not older...and would have been published much earlier in the WBF had it not been restricted by the war.  I find it very strange to explain to learners that if their partner replies 2C (to play) to their 1NT opening, they must alert that bid...where Stayman is NOT alertable...(I can tell you that as directors, we do not enforce that alert!)

Stayman and Bridge go together.  So I have elected to teach my students a very basic >Stayman> at lesson 5 (1 NT opening, which I keep at lesson 5) and I use the first 4 .bri boards from the website to make them practice should they wish to.  There is no obligation for them to play it but at least they know all about it...so when they join the group, they will be aware that 98% of members play it.

When I learned Standard American, Stayman was taught right away and so were transfers...Understandably, SAYC has a higher point count for the NT opening...and transfers are a must...but Stayman? I believe it should be taught right away.

I will see how this will work for them when I send out the Survey on their experience learning the game of bridge with me..

Good topic of discussion for our upcoming seminar!

Helene Labreche

East Coast Bays Bridge Club

Started by HELENE LABRECHE on 15 Apr 2016 at 02:55PM

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  1. GILES HANCOCK16 Apr 2016 at 08:45AM

    Hi Helene

    I tend to disagree with teaching Stayman to beginners.   They have enough to cope with.   There are too many issues - intervention, weak with clubs, 2NT opening, 1NT overcall, garbage sequences, 5-4 Majors etc.   OK, they could just start playing Stayman and learn as they go.   But they may get discouraged.

    I think it's better to teach Stayman, transfers, rangefinder all in one go.   From now on you are playing a system over 1NT, so when partner opens 1NT wake up !   Transfers are actually easier than Stayman, IMO.   But they all go together, learning it piecemeal is more of a strain.  (I taught myself and my partners, I wish I'd had some guidance.)

    At my club, Akaroa, we are mixed grade, one night a week.   So our beginners get to see others using Stayman etc against them before getting the formal lesson.   The next question is, when shall we teach them Stayman ?   They learned bridge last winter, and they're going to get a Stayman lesson next month, which I think is about right.   And then lots of practice hands.   I use flash cards.

    Personally I think Stayman should be alerted, and a weak takeout 2C shouldn't be. smile

    regards, Giles

     

     

  2. DOUGLAS RUSSELL17 Apr 2016 at 02:09PM

    Yes, Helen, a good point, and one worth discussing, but I tend to agree with Giles' response below:  beginners find it difficult enough to cope with bidding the suits that they DO have, and expecting them to latch onto bidding suits that they do NOT have but instead convey a conventional meaning is probably too much at this stage (that is why we do not teach transfers, for example, or 5-card majors, where they would have to open a prepared minor). These things are more appropriate for those who want to to take their game to a higher level of sophistication. Having said that, some of the sharper cookies in my beginners' class have pointed out that it is difficult to locate a 4-4 major fit when one hand opens 1 No Trump, and I have (a) congratulated them on their perspicacity and (b) told them that this shortcoming was identified very early in the development of bridge bidding, and that there are now ways of dealing with it.

    And on a minor point: it may be unwise for beginners to start learning about alerting rules - this may be the kind of legalistic or procedural matter that could put them off the game.

    Douglas Russell

    Auckland/Akarana/North Shore Bridge Clubs

  3. NICK WHITTEN28 Apr 2016 at 09:05PM

    Hi all

    I believe Stayman should be taught as it is what just about everybody plays.

    Especially as a natural weak 2C has to be alerted.
    Opponents may be seriously damaged by failure to alert in a tournament.

    cheers

    Nick

  4. KAREN MARTELLETTI16 May 2016 at 04:31PM

    I am with Russell and Giles on this matter.  If you teach Stayman, I think you then have to teach transfers at the same time.  What beginners need to be told that there is a better convention for them to learn once the master the basics of the game and to ask for leassons on Stayman and transfers when they are ready for it.  I see so many players not using transfers properly, having been taught it as a beginner and that is because they have forgotten some of the principles when they have so much to learn.

    I have just recently taken a group of last year's beginners through stayman and transfers and they are even struggling with it after 12 months playing, so the very new beginners will just get confused, me thinks.

    Great to see people using the forum.  Well done

  5. NICK WHITTEN18 May 2016 at 09:00AM

    I believe the regulatory and teaching arms of NZB need to be compatible with each other.

    And not have anything taught at the elementary level which requires an alert.

     

    cheers

    Nick

  6. STANLEY ABRAHAMS18 May 2016 at 11:15AM

    One has to look at 2 different cases. Firstly anyone slightly interested in learning bridge will be on the internet or in the library. As 99.999% of the literature assumes that everyone for the last 70 years plays some version of Stayman, it surely shows a lack of empathy with our beginners if they are unable to practise simple hands.

    The second point that was made was that there are too many issues. Weak with clubs, 2NT opening, 1NT overcall. I would like to suggest that the frequency of these 3 issues together, come nowhere near the frequency of a requirement to bid Stayman. Even when I played him over 40 years ago, he was not adjusting his system regarding a 2 club bid.

  7. STANLEY ABRAHAMS18 May 2016 at 11:22AM

    And for those of you who want to teach Stayman and transfers at a later date, please tell me what you teach your beginners when responder has a 5 card major and 11-12 points. You know as well as I, that we only reach the correct spot 50% of the time. I can live with that, and transfer bids take care of it at the next teaching level. To be clear, that is the main advantage of transfers, the minors are not nearly so important at duplicate.

  8. STANLEY ABRAHAMS12 Jun 2016 at 11:30AM

    Stayman continued. Also known as Maths 101, Stayman for aspiring bridge teachers.

    Put up your hand if you agree that one needs at least 9 cards in the majors to use Stayman if one has less than 11 HCP, as per the NZCBA lesson for improvers. Keep your hand up if you hold Kxxx, Kxxx, Qxxxx, void, and you decide to pass partners 1NT opening. Is your hand still up? Then you may leave the room.

    Lets go back to needing the 5-4 hands. There are 10 hand distributions where the NT bidder has no 4 card major. (Remember we have 2 rules, not 2 doubletons, and no 5 card major). If you need 5-4 in the majors, and the answer is 2D, then there is a 30% chance that you will be in a 5-2 fit. That gives an average holding in your major of 2.7 opposite your 5. (3 times out of 10 opener will be 3-2 the wrong way round).

    Now look at the example hand. If you pass 2D, there is a 10% chance that you will be in a 5-2 fit, 30% that the fit will be 5-3, 30% that the fit will be 5-4, and 30% that the fit will be 5-5!! )Yes 5-5). That is an average of 3.8 Diamonds opposite your 5, 

    That is simplistic maths, and although the odds vary slightly depending on the distribution, one can see at a glance that Stayman is correct on the example hand, and that one should pass 2D.

    Now change the hand to 4-4-4-1. Now there is a 10% chance that if you pass that you will be in a 4-2 diamond fit. Don't pass, just bid 2H, and opener will correct with only 2 hearts. A guaranteed 7 card fit. And of course that works with any 4-4 in the majors, just forget the diamond suit.

    And what are the chances of picking up 4-4 versus 5-4. Well according to my very, very simple maths, you are 40% more likely to pick up a 4-4 anyway.

    Not convinced. Well I am not surprised, just disappointed. I will continue tomorrow about lack of empathy with our learners, and the conflict of interest that teachers have. 

    (until the moderator gets upset).

  9. DI SADLER02 Apr 2017 at 11:49AM

    I have been teaching 4 people at at time for a number of years and have always wondered when to introduce Stayman...........so far always leaving it until later until a while ago when my latest 4 started playing at our club (Paihia)  which is a small,  relaxed and (mostly) very friendly club.   One of my learners partners, on bidding 2c after my learners 1NT and then being LEFT in 2c, said in an unnecessarly loud voice " Good heavens don't you even know Stayman"......................it took quite a lot of persuasion to get my beginner back to playing at the club!

    I have now decided (rightly or wrongly) to include stayman at the same time as teaching the 1NT.    Speaking for myself if my partner goes 2c after my 1nt,  if I have BOTH majors I reply 2NT allowing my PARTNER to choose his best major. I have found that this saves any misses when I say 2h and they go 3NT ,thinking that I have not got the spades.     

    I would appreciate any comments on this deviation from the norm 

  10. STANLEY ABRAHAMS02 Apr 2017 at 02:15PM

    Hi Di, why not just bid 2H, and if partner bids 3NT, just convert to 4S. Partner would not bid Stayman without any 4 card major, therefore they have Spades.

    If they are weaker than a game bid, this way you won't go past the 2 level.

  11. HELENE LABRECHE02 Apr 2017 at 03:28PM

    well done Di, I can now tell you that most of my students play Stayman after 1 y of play and a lot also play transfers....I play with them when they want me to but I only play what they are comfortable with...so I will keep on teaching Stayman...and so they understand the point about finding a fit in the majors, I also keep 1nt at lesson 5 .

     

  12. DAVID MOREL04 Apr 2017 at 03:20PM

    Hi everyone,

    I tell the beginners about Stayman on night 10 when I'm doing "bits and pieces". I give them a handout on Stayman so they have something to refer to, and I show them a hand where Stayman will lead to a good result, and where no Stayman will mean 3NT one off. I tell them that just about everyone plays Stayman.

    But I tell them not to play it for a few months till they are settled into beginners night.

    And when I give the beginners night players a heads-up on the arrival of the new players I tell them to be aware that newbies will not be playing Stayman, and to make sure they explain Stayman when they use it.

    I usually give a "basic bidding refresher" to new players towards the end of the year and here I promote Stayman, and tell them to start using it.

    Regards

    David Morel

    kapi-Mana Bridge Club

     

  13. STANLEY ABRAHAMS29 Mar 2018 at 08:59PM

    Well its nearly a year since you posted on this subject, Helene, so we are interested in what your beginners said about Stayman in your survey.

  14. HELENE LABRECHE30 Mar 2018 at 08:32AM

    Hi Stanley, yes, you are right...I did not get back to this...Actually, I forgot.  THe last group did not really want to practice Stayman...I tought them about it and had prepared boards for it...but no interest...So I am still teaching it as an improver topic during the year.  In saying that, I am musing with the  idea of teaching it right away when I teach 1NT opening...but not sure...because it affects all the other bidding sequences...hummm.  For now, I will still teach it as an improver...but one major issue with this...is that the 2c bid over the 1NT opening from partner...to play...is still "alertable" in the manual....silly...how does one teach complete beginners about that!

    Cheers

    Helene

  15. KAREN MARTELLETTI04 Apr 2018 at 09:25AM

    My personal view is to not teach Stayman during beginner lessons, BUT you must follow up on it soon after lessons and give Stayman lesson to those ready for it.  We do this at our club and it seems to work well

  16. HELENE LABRECHE04 Apr 2018 at 08:01PM

    Hi Karen, yes I agree, it seems to be too much for learners at that stage.  What I have been doing is after the 10 lessons, I use the next 3 weeks to inform  them ( not teach) about Stayman, transfers, 4C ace asking as they will meet players that play these.  I prepare boards for Stayman in case some want to practice it but no obligation.  Then we have lots of practices (in 2017, we gave them 3 months!) during which time they learn about lots of things....mainly...the "alerting" etc...So much to learn! 

    During the year, then I have workshops on Stayman, Transfers, Negative Doubles (which I believe to be very important) and the many ways to ask for aces. Gerber, CRO and and Blackwood ( I show them how to stop in 5NT if they want to stop there).  At that stage, I will usually find that my students from 2-3 years ago come to these workshops... they are ready.

    CHeers

    Helene

     

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